Interview given by M. Nicolas Sarkozy, President of the Republic, broadcast on BBC Radio 4¹
Paris, 26 March 2008
FRANCE/UK
Q. – (…) How would you describe the relationship with this country you want to see?
THE PRESIDENT – Well, there’s a difference between what other presidents have said and what I’m going to say. Since I went into politics I’ve always thought the same thing, namely that the UK and France needed to trust one another. That we share the same values, that we share the same questions, the same aspirations and hopes, that we have the same adversaries. I have always believed that Europe needed the United Kingdom. I have never reduced France’s European policy simply to our friendship with the Germans. The Paris-Berlin axis is of the essence but it is not enough, and I have never ceased wanting to work in close cooperation with London. When I was Minister of the Interior, when I was Minister for Finance and now as President of the Republic.
Q. – So what do you do to make that happen in specific, practical terms in the next couple of days?
THE PRESIDENT – Well, first of all, I do have some experience. When I became Home Secretary, there was a problem at Sangatte. This was a very serious problem for you, the British, and I went to see David Blunkett, my counterpart at the time, in Britain. That’s when I met Tony Blair. And I said to the British, this Sangatte, are you going to be able to sort it out alone? Of course not. You need the French to help sort it out. And we in France, are we going to be able to sort it out by ourselves? Of course not, we need the British. Now, on defence. We are the two nuclear powers, should we not work together? Both of us, Britain and France, are permanent members of the Security Council. Now it so happens that we have the same vision as to the need to reform international institutions. Do you not believe that the UK and France are stronger together working hand in glove than turning our backs on one another?
EUROPE/NATO/US/“FRANCO-BRITISH BROTHERHOOD”
Q. – But you talk about reforming international institutions, Mr President, and that means, in your vision, as we’ve heard you say, France perhaps coming into the military structure of NATO. But of course if you were sitting in Washington – and you want to be friends with the American administration just as you want to be friends with London – they say that is not reforming an international institution, it’s threatening it, because a European arm of NATO would destroy the Alliance, in their view, as it has been since the Second World War, and that, as you know, is a problem for Gordon Brown. How do you get round that?
THE PRESIDENT – Well, we are not the same. It was your Queen who said “vive la différence!”, which is a beautiful form of words, “long live difference”. But I don’t see that we have to choose between a Europe of defence and NATO: we need both. I spoke before the US Congress in support of this idea, which has been understood by our American friends, and I know the historical alliance between the UK and the US. But it so happens that I am a friend of the Americans. Why should we be in opposition on that one? Why not work together? Who can imagine that we could build a Europe of the future without Britain? And who could imagine that Britain could live, survive, alone, outside of Europe, or simply blinkered vis-à-vis Europe – which is only 30 kilometres away from its shores? You know, what I’ve understood in Europe is that one cannot succeed alone, we need others. Angela Merkel cannot succeed on her own. Gordon Brown cannot succeed on his own. And tomorrow, whomsoever the British leader may be, he will need others, other Europeans. And how can we do without your strong economy, your language, which is the most spoken language throughout the world, do without your defence, which is the most significant in Europe? I want a new Franco-British brotherhood, as it were.
FRANCE/AFGHANISTAN/EU CONSTITUTION/SIMPLIFIED TREATY
Q. – I want to come back to the European question in a moment, but specifically on defence and NATO, are you going to send more troops to Afghanistan, and is that something which you will announce in the course of your visit?
THE PRESIDENT – Well, first of all, can we afford – that’s with the Alliance –, can we afford to lose in Afghanistan? Of course not, because in Afghanistan, what is at stake is part of our battle against world terrorism. Secondly, do we need a new strategy in Afghanistan? Perhaps. Placing more trust in the Afghans themselves? The answer is “yes”. The third question is: is the only response in Afghanistan military? Obviously not. Fourth question: does France want to pull out? Obviously not. But obviously we have to see how long we are prepared to stay because it’s a long-term exercise. Now, if all the terms and conditions are met, why not send in more troops?
Q. – It seems clear that that sends France on a different course, symbolically, emotionally almost, with respect to troops, NATO engagement, outside its traditional area. Is that a message you want to send to Britain, and indeed to Europe and the world?
THE PRESIDENT – You know, I’m the president of a country that actually voted “no” to the European Constitution, and it wasn’t a minor, whispered “no”. I mean, I say this to our fellow citizens who are listening to us this morning: 55% of French people said “no”. I voted “yes”, and yet I was elected President. So I heard what this was about, I understood what this was about. This was about the fact that Britain, that people wanted a different Europe. And we have achieved that thanks to the simplified treaty which we have now adopted. So I want to say to the British: help us build this different Europe. But for this Europe to be different, you must be part of it. How can it be different if you are not part of it? And this message is a message I want to get across to the British who are pro-European as well as the Eurosceptics. If you want to change Europe, then have both feet inside of Europe, otherwise you are never going to be able to change it. And I do have some credibility for saying this because, again, I come from a country that initially said “no”. And might I add that, prior to the elections, I said to my fellow-citizens that I would not call a referendum. Why? Because, for me, Europe was of such importance that I had to be clear about my views before the elections. Yes, we need you. We need you, the British, within Europe.
Q. – But if that wish on your part is going to be fulfilled, you need to carry people with you, and you’ve said yourself that they lost faith to some degree in the institutions of Europe. A lot of people listening to you now will say, ok, in Britain – and indeed there are many people in France – will say: give us a vote on the treaty. Why not?
THE PRESIDENT – Well, this treaty respects differences. No one is asking Britain, the United Kingdom, to change its real identity. Keep your language, your culture, your interests. That’s precisely what we want here in France. But let’s face it, thanks to the simplified treaty, we’re going to have a common immigration policy. Don’t you think we need this on the British side? Do you believe that we can contain the migratory waves from Central Europe and Africa working against one another or working together? And the very first thing we’re going to do is tackle a European immigration pact. Secondly, the fight against terrorism, we have the same enemies – don’t we need to work together? We’ll be stronger that way.
FRENCH REFORMS/BRITISH EXAMPLE
Q. – So you are saying that a Sarkozy presidency brings something to Britain. What?
THE PRESIDENT – No, I wouldn’t claim that, I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is that what you have done over the last 20 years in the UK is quite exceptional. You have modernized your economy, you have injected new dynamism into your society, and in some way what you have done has paved the way on flexisecurity. Be it right or left, Margaret Thatcher or Tony Blair, you’ve been able to implement reforms. You have given us a lot and we need you – we need your strength, we need your stamina, we need your potential, we need your dynamism, your importance. And, might I add as an aside, as London has become the seventh-largest French city, this is a way of mobilizing the whole of France to call the UK to take its full place in Europe.
Q. – Let’s not bring Arsenal into it!
THE PRESIDENT – Why?
EUROPE/TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE
Q. – What’s interesting, Mr President, about you, of course, is that you come from somewhere different: you sprang from Eastern European and Southern European roots. You came to Western Europe in a way that none of your predecessors had. How important is that in shaping a different view of where Europe and the Transatlantic Alliance goes from here?
THE PRESIDENT – Now, you know, coming from Eastern Europe has taught me a lot of tolerance, vis-à-vis the latest members to join the family. I believe the unification of Europe was an excellent thing. For me, this is an opportunity. It’s an area for prosperity and progress. And furthermore, I do not see Europe as a machine whereby we should use it simply to distrust the Americans. We are on both sides of the same ocean. I am a friend of the Americans. It’s a number one democracy in the world. It’s a model of tremendous success.
But we have to be bold enough also to say we don’t agree with the Americans on everything. But the Americans should spearhead what we do in environmental matters in order to save the planet and protect the planet. I’ve said this to them time and again. But this shouldn’t in any way undermine the historical alliance between them and us, and I perfectly understand that Britain should wish to keep its special relationship with the United States. But that does not prevent Britain from taking its rightful place in Europe. You see, I have never distrusted or mistrusted the British ever. And you know, it’s a great honour that has been bestowed upon me to be able to speak to both Houses of Parliament and to be received and welcomed by the Queen.
UK/FRANCE/“ENTENTE AMICALE”
I think this is a historic responsibility. The Entente Cordiale is one thing, I am for the “Entente Amicale” – in other words, the “entente” of friendship. Cordiality is one thing, I want to talk to British people about friendship. You know, it has been long enough now that we have not been at war, that we’re not wrangling. Perhaps we can move from being cordial to being friendly. That’s my first message.
My second message is that this friendship shouldn’t simply be a matter of principle. I want this fleshed out by concrete projects on the economy, immigration, security, defence. Yes, I intend firmly to work with the British, hand in glove. Now, we’re not asking you to join Europe by giving up what you hold dear, but by bringing in everything that you have achieved, and that is a lot.
Q. – Are you influenced in that view by the fact that your father, leaving Hungary long before you were born, could have gone to the United States, or indeed to Britain? I mean, you could be British!
THE PRESIDENT – Well, I don’t know what that would have spelled for my own life, but I often go to London, and I know London isn’t representative of the whole of Britain, but I get the sense we are so close. Often it is our differences that are underlined and underscored, but I want to say one thing: of course there are some visible differences. But we enjoy the same music, we like reading the same authors, we have the same enemies throughout the world, we have the same aspirations. You began reforming before we did, and better than we did, and that has been a tremendous source of inspiration for me. Your politicians are increasingly young – I’m thinking of Mr Cameron, Tony Blair when he was Prime Minister, and the leader of the Liberal party, the Lib Dems. You are one of the very first parliamentary democracies to have appeared in the world. I don’t look at what gulf there might be between us, I only see similarities. We like your, we love your music, we like your actors, your films, your literature. I want a new Franco-British friendship, a real friendship. And I’m speaking as President of the French Republic, who is a friend, a close friend of Britain, that I’m coming on this visit and full of admiration for so much of the work that you have done, and perhaps it’s even stronger that I say so myself when not British. And I’m not going to talk about football, or Arsenal, even though I have to say that we did give you a hell of a helping hand by sending you the team we did!
PRESIDENT SARKOZY/POLITICAL STYLE/UK/FRANCE
Q. – You also talk, Mr President, as a child of the ’fifties. So you have a different style, you’re younger than anyone who has sat here before. And of course that style, your personal ways, have caused you political difficulties, we all know that: the polls are bad, local elections, the usual stuff. Do you find that, as President of this Republic, you are having to change as you go along in ways that you hadn’t expected?
THE PRESIDENT – Well, first of all, it’s always very important to listen to what people have to say, and I’m not the sort of man to listen to flattery and to refuse to listen to criticism. I take account of both – compliments and criticism. Now, obviously I’ve had few compliments coming to me over the last few months, but I’ve had my fair share in the past. I take account of what people say to me. But if the only thing, the only criticism people have to level at me is on my style, it simply means that in substance there’s nothing else to say. So, I would say to my British friends: France is changing. If there’s a style problem, well, so be it. I hope that you will appreciate the outfit that I had made for the banquet tomorrow night.
Q. – The last one. What do you think most British people today think of France, and what would you like them to think of France?
THE PRESIDENT – Last question, but not least! I would like the British to love my country and to see my country through today’s spectacles and not yesterday’s spectacles. Not simply a country where it is pleasant to live, but a country of intelligence, of hi-tech, a country that is thirsting for a future, a country that can be trusted. I would like you to see us as historic allies for the future, as definitive friends, friends forever. And I would like you to join in the shaping and building of Europe tomorrow, and join in the building of European institutions for the future. And for me, within Europe, there is definitely your country./.
¹ President Sarkozy spoke through an interpreter.